Book Group: Session 9 discussion - THAT THEY MAY FACE THE RISING SUN/BY THE LAKE by John McGahern

** WARNING: IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THIS BOOK THERE ARE SPOILERS AHEAD **

I've banged on about this book -- and McGahern in general -- so much, I don't know if there is anything else I can really add here that will add to the sum of human knowledge. What I really want to know is what YOU thought of That They May Face the Rising Sun/By the Lake?

To get your creative juices flowing, I have listed some questions (with the help of ReadingGroupGuides.com) that you may wish to consider, but there's no need to answer everything listed. Just pick and choose as you see fit, add your own and by all means respond to the comments left by others.

Alternatively, feel free to post about the book on your own blog, but please do leave a comment below with the relevant URL/permalink so we can drop on by to see what you wrote...

1. On a scale of one to five, with one being rubbish and five being excellent, how did you rate this book?

2. What did you think of the pacing of this novel? Was it too slow? Did the lack of plot annoy you?

3.Why does McGahern open the novel with the image of stillness on the lake? Why are the swans, the lake, the heron, the farm animals, and the changing seasons constantly juxtaposed against the human action related in these pages? Which descriptive passages are most striking? What is Joe Ruttledge's relationship to nature, his farm, and his animals?

4. McGahern introduces a number of characters in the Ruttledges' circle: Jamesie and Mary, Johnny, Patrick Ryan, John Quinn and the Shah, among others. How does McGahern make these people seem real? What are their defining qualities? Which characters are most likeable and why?

5. When asked what's wrong with his life in London, Joe Ruttledge replies, "Nothing but it's not my country and I never feel it's quite real or that my life there is real. That has its pleasant side as well. You never feel responsible or fully involved in anything that happens" [p. 23]. How is Joe's reply to Jimmy Joe McKiernan understood in the context of the rest of the novel?

6. How does McGahern use the character of Johnny to depict the emigrant's life and the painful uprooting of so many of the Irish who left home? When Jamesie says, "He'd have been better if he'd shot himself instead of the dogs" [p. 9], what does he mean? How welcome is Johnny when he comes home?

7. The brutality of Bill Evans's life as an orphan [pp. 10–16] casts a shadow on the kindly behavior that seems to pervade the novel. How has Bill Evans, now an old man, been scarred by his experiences? Why is Joe Ruttledge willing to be unfailingly generous and patient with Bill Evans?

8. That They May Face the Rising Sun/By the Lake is a novel of manners that, like the work of Jane Austen, scrutinises the ways in which human beings interact in a small community. What is most noticeable about how Joe, Kate, Jamesie and Mary behave toward one another? How important are the qualities of generosity, humor and patience? Why is so much careful attention paid to certain ceremonial aspects of life, such as when the Ruttledges host a dinner party for Jamesie's extended family [pp. 288–92]?

9. There is much talk in this novel; the rhythms of talk and the sound of human voices are central to the novel. Why is Jamesie so thirsty for gossip? Why is the need for stories so important in a small rural community? Why do some people reveal a lot about themselves, while some reveal almost nothing? For instance, why do we learn so little of Joe Ruttledge's private life while we learn so much of John Quinn's?

10. The novel is marked by a distinct lack of action. At one point, Joe realises, "The days were quiet. They did not feel particularly quiet or happy but through them ran the sense, like an underground river, that there would come a time when these days would be looked back on as happiness, all that life could give of contentment and peace" [p. 234]. Why is contentment difficult to describe within the conventional expectations of plot in fiction?

11. Given that Jamesie and Joe are very good friends, is it surprising that Joe refuses to speak about the reason he and Kate have no children? Does the episode of the black lamb shed any light on this issue? How does McGahern comment on the curious relationship between what is shared and what is kept private in such a tiny community?

12. Does Joe Ruttledge, given his education and his time spent in London, fit in socially when he comes to live by the lake? Are Joe and Kate unusual in their willingness to give up a cosmopolitan life for a rural backwater? Does McGahern imply that it takes a very alert, observant sensibility to enjoy life in such a quiet place?

13. Why are details of historical time, as well as the characters' ages, deliberately withheld? How relevant is the fact that this community is close to the border with Northern Ireland, or that we hear of an atrocity that took place at nearby Enniskillen? What is the significance of Jamesie's story about the ambush by the Black and Tans, which is commemorated every year [pp. 271–278]?

14. What narrative effect is achieved by the description of the laying out of Johnny's body? Why does Joe volunteer to do this? How important is the fact that the novel includes a death, a wake and a funeral? Why does the story end as it does, with the shed unfinished, and Ruttledge thinking that he'll decide whether to take Patrick Ryan up on the offer to finish it?

15. Some of the most important questions addressed by this novel were asked by reviewer Hermione Lee, who wrote in the The Observer: "This great and moving novel, which looks so quiet and provincial, opens out through its small frame to our most troubling and essential questions. How well do we remember? How do we make our choices in life? Why do we need repetition? What is to remain of us? Above all, what can happiness consist in?" How does McGahern's novel address these issues?

16. Have you read anything else by John McGahern. If not, would you be inclined to read his other books?

Comments

[Lazy Cow]

I thought I'd read this book carefully, paying a lot of attention to small details, scribbling copious notes and relevant passages, but still most of those questions stump me! I disagree that 'nothing happens', in fact, I think a lot is going on, but it is told in such a muted, understated manner that it just appears that way. By the time I got to the passage near the end, when Patrick Ryan explains to Joe why they need to have the head of Johnny's grave facing west, "so that they may face the rising sun" I was in tears. It was so moving and beautiful. I've never read any of McGahern's books before, indeed, had never heard of him, but I'll certainly be seeking them out now. There is so much I'd like to say about this book, but I'll come back (and probably post my own thoughts on my blog as well). Thanks so much for hosting this book Kimbofo, I feel I've discovered a rare treasure.

[Trevor Cook]

Here's my first go at some of the questions - I can't do them all in one go! and I will want to elaborate especially in the light of other comments. And I'm writing like talking I'm not wedded to these views
1. Five or vey close
2. After the first 50 pages the novel just flew for me. I was totally engaged with the charaters and atmospherics and the descriptions of people and nature are wonderful
3. Nature and the natural passage of the seasons and so is a mjaor character in the novel. I think it operates as backdrop for the human action but also fuses with that action. They are inseoerable. I think McGahern's ability to pull this off so lyrically and convincingly is a major triumph. It never strikes you as added on or window dressing and it is not sentimentalised
4. The characters are given very definite and individualised charateristics including speech patterns. It is clever because it is stereotypes without being stereotypical

[nutmeg]

Like Lazy Cow before me I also had tears in my eyes at that stage. This book is an enigma in some ways. I read a summary of it in "1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die", after I had finished it and I thought - did I read the same book? It has so many levels and each, I think, talks to different people at different stages of their lives. It would be a book to read again and again; receiving a new insight every time. It is sad, it is gentle and harsh, it is life affirming and crippling by turns. Lush, deep, moving. I really did fall in love with the man; the writer and his characters. To be able to see the world through eyes like those. I shed another tear when I heard that he passed away recently. I have also read his "Memoir" and I cannot recommend it highly enough to everybody. I think it gives some very interesting insights into his fiction. Great choice Kimbofo!

[Trevor Cook]

One thing I felt was very true was the treatment of family relationships. They are so accurately depicted in their joys and disappointments and the way that they only work if people smooth over the sharp edges all the time - McGahern says in the letter from Johnny wanting to come home incident

[Lazy Cow]

For me, John Quinn was the most fascinating character. The way he treated women was monstrous (they had no way of knowing what he was really like until he'd ensnared them) but he obviously was adored by his children. Having written that, I'm now wondering if that's possible in the one person?
I don't think I could have read this novel 10 years ago, I wouldn't have been mature enough. It really is a 'grown ups' book.

[kimbofo]

Lazy Cow, I have to admit I had a lump in my throat at that passage too, because the whole way I kept wondering why the book had this odd title -- surely the American title (By the Lake) was better. (I must admit the only thing I don't like about my book is the horrible cover -- the American one is nicer.)

Trevor, it took me awhile to get into this book but once I got to know the characters it flew for me too. I agree that nature is a major character -- but it never seems like an add on. His descriptions are pitch-perfect and there's a kind of rythm to them. I heard him do some readings (in a podcast) and the sentence structure seemed to marry with the rythm of his speech patterns, so now when I read his novels I can now hear his lovely voice in my head.

[kimbofo]

Re: John Quinn -- the story about his first marriage (taking his wife to the shore to have his way with her while the guests were waiting) rang a bell. I have a feeling it is recounted in his Memoir -- perhaps Nutmeg can remember? -- or it appears in another of his novels. I just remember being horrified -- it seemed so distasteful!

[nutmeg]

The element of "Memoir" that may shed some light on that incident Kimbofo is when McGahern's father returns home to see his wife for the last time before she dies and it seems he has mainly returned to have sex with her. She lived for quite some time after that visit but he just couldn't seem to return home again before she died. As she lay dying he ordered all the furniture removed from the house. It was truly dreadful. So, maybe this could help explain McGahern's seeming disbelief (if that's the right word!) at the strength of the urge for sex in some men. It will cross all socially acceptable boundaries.

[Trevor Cook]

13 The treatment of historical time is a fascinating one in the novel. I think the atrocity scene is important because it shows how the people - the Irish in particular? - cope ie they keep their heads down and their moths shut to stay out of trouble and / or they takeup violence in an undercover way. I think there are parallels here with the Leopard another great novel about the impact of occupation and its impact on peasant society
More broadly a major theme of McGahern's book is the way ordinary people adjust and respond to big historical changes. He does this deftly with small pointers like the priests sermon at Johnny's funeral and again the few references to the 'nation's unfinished business'. Doing it deftly like this keeps daily life, nature and family & community relationships to the forefront which is a very powerful treatment. In a lesser novelist it would have been the other way around.

[kimbofo]

Trevor, agree that the treatment of time is interesting. For a long while I wasn't sure what era it was set, only because most of his other books are not modern, but set in times gone by.

[Isabel]

I didn't finish reading the book, because I felt it was too slow in developing. I wasn't in the frame of mind to finish it. I will think about that.

So, my comment may not be complete until I finish reading it.

Q6. I felt a little tremor when I read how he killed his dogs. They were his companions. Was he trying to sever all ties with his hometown by chasing after the girl in London? Why didn't he give the dogs to some friends?

Maybe he wanted to be the only one to have the good company of the dogs.

I felt it was mean for this reason: killing two healty animals when someone else could have taken care of them shows selfishness. There are better ways to cut your ties to home than doing this.

[Danielle]

I really enjoyed this book. It is one I have looked at but never really seriously thought of reading until now (not sure why). Although it is a bit slow starting, I got so wrapped up in the lives of the people I had to keep going until the end. What really struck me is that this is really an Irish novel. I can't picture this novel set in somewhere like Italy for example. You have probably been to Ireland (I was fortunate enough to spend a couple of summers there), so you know that is really what a small town feels like in Ireland. The way the people spend time with each other and all the conversing and hospitality. I hope to read more of his books!

[kimbofo]

Isabel, it is definitely one of those books that is slow to get going, but once you pass the first 50 pages you get enveloped in a certain 'mood' that is difficult to pull yourself away from -- at least that was my experience.

Danielle, I grew up in rural Australia in a tiny village that was very much like the place depicted in this book, so I'm not sure it's an entirely Irish novel -- there were definitely certain elements of small town life that rang a very strong bell for me. Of course, the Irish emigre experience -- of having to move to England to make a living -- is particularly Irish, as is the The Troubles in the North, which are hinted at on more than one occasion (but never fully explored). But glad you enjoyed your first McGahern -- I can't recommend him strongly enough!

[Trevor Cook]

I think its village life more generally. Cris Koch, the Australian novelist, wrote a book about a trip to Ireland a few years ago and he points out that the electric light came light to Ireland - particularly some parts of the west and south-west and that is a reason why singing in Irish pubs (& craic) is, or was a few years ago, still so evident. No jukeboxes, radios etc meant that people had to entertain themselves. Each person had a responsibility to participate. Chris says this would have been true of English villages in the past but electricity came much earlier beyond living memory, so we think it is quaintly Irish whereas these things are more generally. I was reminded of this at the end of rising sun when he describes the telephone coming - it is understated but a poignant reminder that the world he describes is fast disappearing - once you can ring people you stop dropping by and your circle of daily contacts begins to expand and then we get the Internet and the idea of village life that was so prevalent a few hundred years ago becomes unimaginable and very foreign. With progress, you lose something for every benefit you get. Sad too much.

[Trevor Cook]

I meant came late not came light obviously

[kimbofo]

Trevor, great point. I did read somewhere that McGahern said that with the coming of electricity/telecommunications rural Ireland went from the 18th century to the 20th in one giant leap!

[suki]

Have just begun reading the novel. Tried 3-4 times to get through the first 10 or so pages without success. Finally made it to 51 and as you say after pg 50 or so you are drawn in to the storytelling voices and the lives so deeply that you don't want to put the book down. The novel's structure seems "female" to me, wide and broad and rambling (male being orderly, workmanlike plot, climax driven structure). At times I don't know who the narrator is, he seems to get lost in the storytelling. But if I let go of having to know and just flow with the prose then I am totally captured. More later as I continue to read. The hues of emotions that arise in this reader as I read are amazing. The sense of the varieties of persepectives on life creates a great opening within me. I think he's a 'writer's writer" in that I want to write after reading his prose.

[kimbofo]

Suki, I am glad you perservered. It's a lovely slow book, one you have to take at its own pace. Once you get into the story it becomes wholly absorbing, doesn't it?

I find it interesting that you think the structure seems "female". McGahern is astonishingly adept at getting inside the mindset of women - his debut novel "The Barracks" floored me when I read it, because it is told from the point of view of a woman in 1950s Ireland who is dying of breastcancer. And it is incredibly authentic.

He is definitely a writer's writer.

[suki]

Thanks for your comments Kimbofo. I look forward to reading his other books and his memoir.

[suki]

Have just finished "By the Lake." I prefer the other title. I got bogged down a bit here and there. As others have mentioned, in the end, with the death and funeral, I was very moved at the mystery and largeness of life. I loved the voice and rhythm of the nature descriptions. The repetitions re: swans, ducks and so forth. They were like a song themselves. I thought the Ruttledge's having lived a more cosmopolitan life offered a nice contrast. I liked the part where Kate is offered a good job in London and takes her time keeping the door open, then closing it.

Re: bookgroup questions. Although I was an English major in college and am a writer myself, I am never inspired by bkgroup questions. In fact, I am mostly shamed by them as I can rarely answer them.

[suki]

ps This is not a criticism of using bk group questions as starters for conversation but rather just my own personal reaction to such questions.

[kimbofo]

Glad you finished it, Suki.

I only use the book group questions because (1) it helps kick-start people's thoughts and (2) I'm too lazy to compile my own! I have to admit that some book group questions (not necessarily the ones associated with this discussion) are either impossibly difficult to answer or childish beyond belief!